March Book Club: Geek Love

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;936685]Also, just out of curiosity, I checked Amazon and saw a couple other books by Katherine Dunn. Has anybody ever read [I]Attic[/I] or [I]Truck[/I]? Can you tell us anything about them?[/QUOTE]

I read this one awhile ago, it's one of my favorite reads. I just love the way Dunn writes. The problem is the book is currently a few thousand miles away and I've got no chance to review prior to the club getting going. However, I thought I'd contribute where I could. First a wee disclaimer: I haven't read any of Dunn's books for a few years, so I really don't remember the details. From what I remember, they aren't bad, but I thought Geek Love was her crowning achievement. The other books, I think, were actually written some time before Geek Love and her style is dramatically different. If you're looking for more of what you find in Geek Love, I'd say look other places, but the other two can still be worth your time if you're just interested in the woman's work.

what up, kiddo's?
so, my confession: a very dear friend of mine recommended this book to me years ago. i picked it up and i don't even think i got through the first chapter before i put it down. sounds crazy, no? Geek Love and i didn't mesh at the time, so i didn't think anything would be different now... luckily i was wrong. i am a little ways into book 2 at the moment and am loving it.

[B]1. There is a huge time jump between the first chapter and the rest of book one. What do you think of this writing technique? Did it expose too much plot too early?[/B]

my problem with Geek Love's time jump is not that it happens, but what we see in the future. the long ago story that the book begins with is charming and quaint in a Carnivale way. twisted and uncomfortable, but still gives you that warm "ahhhhhhh" feeling. now jump to the present and everyone but oly is dead/estranged/blind/etc. and (although it makes me REALLY want to know how all of this happened) it destroys that warm and fuzzy feeling the first chapter gave me. which is sad.

2. What were your first reactions on discovering the relationship between Olympia and Miranda?

maybe this is completely retarded of me (or maybe i wasn't paying attention) but until we met Miranda and saw Oly at the club, i really thought that she was a man. so my reaction was probably a bit more extreme than the rest of y'alls. outside of that i don't think i had much of a reaction until they actually began to interact more (more on that later... i don't know at the moment where book 1 ends and 2 begins).

3. Quote: "They thought to use and shame me but I win out by nature, because a true freak cannot be made. A true freak must be born." (20) What kind of birth do you think this quote is talking about?

this speaks to the internal world of our character. to the "norms," the people in the bar, on the street, Oly LOOKS like a freak. but that's not what MAKES her a freak. we all have little (and some of us, huge) abnormalities... most hide them, cover them up, minimize them to fit in... to keep from getting exploited, shamed. a freak takes their abnormality and makes it their own. finds pride in it. exploits it themselves.
a bunch of fucked up nuts in a bar push Oly up onto the stage to create their freak. she wins because she truly is one.

4. Finally, Miss Lick. Does anyone ave any insight into what her deal is? That's kind of a dumb question, but I guess the character is pretty strange.

what is up with this psycho? she's obviously not actually interested in helping any of these people. she's a collector. was she once a circus freak? maybe a rejected offspring because she wasn't freak enough? i am certainly looking forward to the evolution of this one!

I'm finishing a bunch of other stuff first... I was in the middle of reading three books before this started. I finished two of them and have one to finish. I want to give Geek Love my undivided attention.

Questions for Book II:
1. What exactly does Arty have to gain from his actions? Or what's motivating him? It's not like he really wants for anything or changes his lifestyle all that much despite his new position of power.
2. What about the case of nature v. nurture using Chick as an example?
3. Quote from the end of book II: "We were accelerating towards something and we didn't know what." Theories?

Reading over some of the posts here, bits and pieces of Geek Love are coming back to me. I wanted to make some comments on question one relating to that smash cut, hopefully open up a little bit of actual discussion rather than just a lot of opinions.

Personally, I really enjoyed that prologue-esque introduction. While it does set up the story plotwise, it more or less creates the mood and reinforces Dunn's writing style. It's a very oratory style, like we're all crowding around Dad's armchair before bedtime for a story. It can be easy to forget that Olympia is our narrator and that she's telling this from her perspective with her words and her take on these things. If any of the other Binewskis had be the ones telling this story, we'd be having a dramatically different take on all of these events. While the cut may be distracting if you take it as a part of the story as a whole, I see it as all of us settling in to listen to this story and THEN the story begins with the cut.

If I remember everything right. Dammit I wish I had my book.

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;938468]Is this bad sad or good sad? In other words, is ruining the warm fuzzies worth the effect it creates, or does it happen too soon?[/QUOTE]

that would be Bad Sad.
this book has thrown me for a loop in that i normally despise stories that jump back and forth from present to past. i typically get attached to one story over another and then find the pieces of the story that i'm not into to be laborious. Dunn doesn't jump so much... we received a small taste of taste of the present-time story and now i wish she'd jump a little more so that i could see what was going on with Oly and Miranda. of course the Fabulon half of the story is completely fascinating and knowing what she's building to has kept my pages turning.

Okay, I had my answers for the first 3 questions on Book 1 wrote out then my computer crashed and instead of starting again, im just going to say that I agreed with Drinking Mercury and Mc Muddle in general.
As for the book, im loving it so far and cant wait to climb into bed with it and begin Part 2. The very beginning reminded me of the best TV series in the last 10 years Carnivale. Does anyone else find this?
I dont know how available this book is in America but I have never seen it on a bookshelf in Ireland so thnnk you cult for this one.
I find it difficult to be surprised by fiction any more and so far this book has me wanting to tear through it. Im really getting to like the characters and feel for them.

[QUOTE=LoneKnypher;940358]i saw a box for Carnivale at Best Buy and it looked really interesting. it did seem similar to this book. but i dont get HBO... :([/QUOTE]

If you liked Twin Peaks then Carnivale is right up your street, Im starting Book 2 of Geek Love today and hopefully I can post about it later.

ok, i suppose in a way this is off subject. but here's a plug for Carnivale (for those of you loving Geek Love). see the show! it's fantastic and it certainly does have a Geek Love feel. after reading this book i'm surprised they didn't feature a Geek as a character on the show. go rent it or netflix it or whatever.
as far as tomstrong's comment above: this will be a great point of discussion once everyone finishes (i finished the book last week and i don't want to say too much). Oly certainly is conflicted about Miranda and her Binewski qualities as well as her claim to freakishness and how hidden it is. i think it becomes very clear exactly what Oly values in her daughter (and in her family) at the end of the book. so i shall say no more on the subject until then!

Hello Everybody. I hope you are all wrapping up your reading of [I]Geek Love[/I]. I wanted to post as a reminder that this thread is now completely open, including any spoilers, so [U]read beyond this point at your own risk[/U].
Also, as a discussion point, I thought I would post some of the more negative Amazon reviews. See what you think.

[B]Exploitive and manuipulative, March 17, 1998[/B]
Reviewer: A reader
I find it more disturbing that readers would find this enjoyable than that it was actually written. Experimentation of this type on people has been condemned by most thoughtful societies. To try to imply that parental affection has any role in the abusive treatment of the children is a travesty.

[B]Ugly, humorless and ultimately trivial., July 17, 1998[/B]
Reviewer: "puffinswan" (Brigadoon) - See all my reviews
I picked this book up hoping it would be clever and unusual...but it ended up being a superficial cesspool masquerading as "art".

[B]No Love for Geek Love, October 28, 2000[/B]
Reviewer: Vicki (Memphis, TN) - See all my reviews
I read this book because it was chosen by my book club. After hearing so many great reviews about this book I could hardly wait to get started reading it. Unfortunately, after finishing the book, I was extremely disappointed in its lack of purpose and meaningful statement - what ever point this author was attempting to make totally escaped me. After reading this book I am only left with an empty feeling of what this author could have done with such a highly imaginative story line and creative characterizations. Yes, it's true, Dunn did come up with a great idea for a story and she created some fascinating characters - my problem is - I just don't see that she used her creative imagination well enough to develop a true sense of story that communicated a message to me as a reader. I'm still pondering what the heck, if anything, was she trying to say? I was even hoping to get a clue from some of the customer reviews posted on this site. Unfortunately, all I hear are great recommendations due to the horrifying scenes and grotesqueness of the book. I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me what purpose it all served.
I have no problem reading disturbing subjects and characters - but, I do expect there to be a reason and message behind the disturbance. I found no message to Dunn's story, other than the fact that she has attempted to do the same thing as her characters - capitalize on creating "freaky" and disgusting characters who serve no purpose other than fascinating readers simply because of their abnormalities.

As I'm writing this review, it just occurred to me that perhaps the message is that if you like this book, then perhaps you are like one of the "Norms" in her book who would pay a pretty penny just to gawk and point at (or read about) carnival freaks.

[QUOTE=drinking mercury;940983]Oly certainly is conflicted about Miranda and her Binewski qualities as well as her claim to freakishness and how hidden it is. i think it becomes very clear exactly what Oly values in her daughter (and in her family) at the end of the book. so i shall say no more on the subject until then![/QUOTE]

Some thought:
Oly is sort of the family outcast because she is sort of less of a freak. But away from her family she's the biggest freak around. Do think that Oly would want Miranda to be more or less of a freak?
I guess what I found troubling was that it seemed like the most important thing to Oly was family, so I don't completely understand why she would be so upset about Miranda losing her tail.
Are you saying that Oly values Miranda and her family for their freakish qualities? Or it is something else.

[QUOTE=tomstrong83;944220]True. Do you have any specific favorites?[/QUOTE]

The first that really caught my eye was ...

"One of my teachers says I draw like a mass murderer.
I hate that ditsy crap though. Inchy little lines like the hesitation cuts on a suicides wrist."

You?

(I'm gonna respond real soon, but with my new schedule I get like an hour of computer time and I really want to watch the making of Lawrence of Arabia and I gotta plan a little bit more for my trip to China, so I swear I'm gonna respond soon, especially after my bitching that people don't discuss enough. Rambling again. Sorry.)

[QUOTE=McMuddle;944367]The first that really caught my eye was ...

"One of my teachers says I draw like a mass murderer.
I hate that ditsy crap though. Inchy little lines like the hesitation cuts on a suicides wrist."

You?[/QUOTE]

"But she [I]wasn't[/I] in time! He came when she pulled the trigger. He spurted like a cockroach oozing eggs as it dies!"

Question: What kind of circus freak would you want to be?

Circus Strong Man. Old time strongmen all just look like fat ex-football players. Seems like a life of ease until your hernia incarcerates and your guts go spilling into your sack.

[QUOTE=McMuddle;948032]I respect your refusal to surrender.
QUOTE]

What can I say? It's not like I was picked to moderate just because I raised my hand. Wait, it was exactly like that! We are fucked.

Right - I've just (belatedly) finished the book - and I can join the resounding chorus of "it's effing great".

In answer to your questions, Tom:

[QUOTE]1. There is a huge time jump between the first chapter and the rest of book one. What do you think of this writing technique? Did it expose too much plot too early?[/QUOTE]

The prologue was superb. It felt like settling in to listen to John Hurt tell a Brother's Grimm fairytale. It set the scene for the whole book: this is the way it is, Al and Lil created these weird dreamlets, now let's move on.

As Drinking Mercury said, the jump is a change in tone and atmosphere. But it works totally for the good of the story. We're never comfortable through the tale, even in the earlier cosy times of tree climbing and cuddles. This also adds a vein of melancholy and even menace through the story. We know that disaster is brewing - and she reiterates that point throughout the book.

Basically, the first few chapters were told with such confidence and style that I was happy to be taken anywhere that Dunn wanted to lead me.

[QUOTE]What were your first reactions on discovering the relationship between Olympia and Miranda?[/QUOTE]

I was interested to find out more. That's pretty much it!

[QUOTE]"They thought to use and shame me but I win out by nature, because a true freak cannot be made. A true freak must be born." (20) What kind of birth do you think this quote is talking about?[/QUOTE]

This kind of echoes Arty's comment about how artists and alternative types are never true freaks - they're self created, drawn to freakdom through their very lack of anything original and freakish.

[QUOTE] Finally, Miss Lick. Does anyone ave any insight into what her deal is? That's kind of a dumb question, but I guess the character is pretty strange.[/QUOTE]

Well, this was certainly a bold and strange subplot to bookend the story. I wasn't too sure what I thought of it as I read, but having now reached the end I can say that it worked. I can't quite get a handle on her ultimate motivations, apart from a similar jealousy to Arty and a kind of sexual uselessness that affects several of the characters at one time or another. Both her and Oly are fascinated by and repulsed by Miranda's magnetic sexuality. What I really liked was the sense that there was a similar confusion of hate, attraction and sympathy between her and Oly as there was between Arty and Oly. In a way, it felt like Oly was killing Arty at the end - the threat to her little Miranda, but also her friend.

[QUOTE]What exactly does Arty have to gain from his actions? Or what's motivating him? It's not like he really wants for anything or changes his lifestyle all that much despite his new position of power.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure his name must be an intentional nod to "The Resistable Rise of Arturo Ui" by Berthold Brecht. Arturo is a clear parody of Hitler (in the guise of a Chicago gangster).

If so, I think that tells us a little bit about how Dunn viewed her little flipper-man.

He is a megalomaniac - but he's fueled by the things that fuel most of us. Jealousy, inadequacy, frustration, the need to be loved. I thought it was telling that he hand-picked the "pneumatic blondes" from the crowd to fuck. Despite all his hatred of the norms, he seems angry that he's so limited (powerless after the shooting, unable to swing a club, unable to properly get around without aid) and also jealous of and attracted to the long-limbed. It's the whole thing of "if I am not like the world, I shall make the world like me"

On the reviews. Wouldn't normally dignify these with a reply, but what the heck!

[QUOTE]Exploitive and manuipulative, March 17, 1998
Reviewer: A reader
I find it more disturbing that readers would find this enjoyable than that it was actually written. Experimentation of this type on people has been condemned by most thoughtful societies. To try to imply that parental affection has any role in the abusive treatment of the children is a travesty.[/QUOTE]

I think we can safely say that Katherine Dunn isn't condoning the abuse of children through chemical manipulation. Aside from anything else, the tale ends in complete tragedy - Arty and his clan incinerated, Al blown to bits, Chick evaporated, the twins eviscerated, mumpo butchered, Oly dead, Lil crazy and alone...etc etc

If it's an advert for experimentation during pregnacy, she did a pretty shitty job of convincing us.

But, it's fair to day that in the story there is a message about learning to love who you are and learning to look beneath the surface of others. Perhaps the reviewer is responding to Dunn's lack of damning judgement of Al and Lil.

[QUOTE]Ugly, humorless and ultimately trivial., July 17, 1998
Reviewer: "puffinswan" (Brigadoon) - See all my reviews
I picked this book up hoping it would be clever and unusual...but it ended up being a superficial cesspool masquerading as "art".[/QUOTE]

Here's my contention: this book [I]is[/I] clever and original. I don't think there's anything else to add.

[QUOTE]No Love for Geek Love, October 28, 2000
Reviewer: Vicki (Memphis, TN) - See all my reviews
I read this book because it was chosen by my book club. After hearing so many great reviews about this book I could hardly wait to get started reading it. Unfortunately, after finishing the book, I was extremely disappointed in its lack of purpose and meaningful statement - what ever point this author was attempting to make totally escaped me. After reading this book I am only left with an empty feeling of what this author could have done with such a highly imaginative story line and creative characterizations. Yes, it's true, Dunn did come up with a great idea for a story and she created some fascinating characters - my problem is - I just don't see that she used her creative imagination well enough to develop a true sense of story that communicated a message to me as a reader. I'm still pondering what the heck, if anything, was she trying to say? I was even hoping to get a clue from some of the customer reviews posted on this site. Unfortunately, all I hear are great recommendations due to the horrifying scenes and grotesqueness of the book. I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me what purpose it all served.
I have no problem reading disturbing subjects and characters - but, I do expect there to be a reason and message behind the disturbance. I found no message to Dunn's story, other than the fact that she has attempted to do the same thing as her characters - capitalize on creating "freaky" and disgusting characters who serve no purpose other than fascinating readers simply because of their abnormalities.

As I'm writing this review, it just occurred to me that perhaps the message is that if you like this book, then perhaps you are like one of the "Norms" in her book who would pay a pretty penny just to gawk and point at (or read about) carnival freaks.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm no fan of any book that leaves me with "a message". That's what Aesop's Fables are for.

But, unlike this reviewer, I constantly found things to dwell on during the story - ideas and relationships that made me forget about the grotesque stuff. In many ways this was one of the sweetest books I've read for a while. Dunn portrays the love, lies, jealousy and politics of a family brilliantly. There's also some interesting ideas about decay (the waning powers of Al and passing the buck on to the bullish son), sibling rivalry and frustration (Arty's crazed power trips), religion (the empty, lonely girl turning to Arty because he helped her find purpose), how sex complicates things during adolescence and can be used in the struggle for affection and power, disappointment in your children and the hope that they will somehow continue your story (Miranda's overt sexuality, Oly's hope that she "bolt's us on the hood of your trevlling machine and take us on the road again"), the confusion of sex with love and sibling love with desire, the thrill of being different - but the ultimate pain and isolation of being unique, what is it that makes a freak a freak?...and so on.

One of the best books I've read in the past couple of years.

It's a play by the famous German playwright, Berthold Brecht.

Arturo Ui is the main character in a story that exactly mirrors the rise of the Third Reich - but it's sets in Chicago in the 1930s. The obvious suggestion is that Hitler and his cronies were no better than thugs and gangsters. I think it was actually written when he was in exhile in the US - escaping the Nazi regime. There could be some kind of parallel between Arty's style of thuggishness and megalomania and Hitler's (and maybe even Arty's hatred of the "norms" is similar to Hitler's dehumanisation of Jews, Blacks etc. - but that's maybe a connection too far.)

If it isn't a deliberate connection, it's a brilliant coincidence!

It's actually a very funny play, and one of Brecht's more accessible.

[QUOTE=PGoutis01;948503]This is why Moe and I had such a hard time with this thing. It's very discouraging![/QUOTE]

Well, my dad always used to say you can't spell discouraging without couraging. So he wasn't totally brilliant.
I appreciate all the work you guys put in before and that you continue to do so much.

[QUOTE=drinking mercury;949186]me as a circus freak: i think i'd want to be the burlesque dancer with four arms or some such thing.
and mcmuddle, you are correct. dwarfs do get the most action. i used to know one and he did get all the girls.
tomstrong: don't dispare: you did a fine job. you know we all would have had a smashing discussion if we were sprawled around a coffee shop with a cup o' joe and talking about the book. i think translating that type of environment to this forum isn't an easy task. thanks for being our valiant monderator.[/QUOTE]

Four arms would be nice. I could never do that because people would be disappointed that I still sucked at sports.

Don't worry, I'm not down. I think it went okay for the number of people and everything. I'll be here next month for whoever moderates. Thanks for participating.

It's interesting how people give up their identity in order to have one, of sorts. Like the people who were into the Arturism in the book lost more and more of their bodies and became more and more like Arty.
What's interesting is that Arty becomes this sort of moral leader, but he doesn't see, to follow his own preachings. I'm no Hitler scholar, but I wonder if he was the same way(?)

I'm no Hitler scholar - and I'm drunk - but....

Re: Tom...

Hitler seemed to think he had some moral purpose, however misguided. Remember that morals are constructs - we can all create our own.

Why is Arty a moral leader? He hates his flock, treats them as consumers - as cattle, kills maims and deceives, abuses his family and ultimately leads to their destruction. So moral - in the conventional sense of the word - he isn't. He preys on the weak.

And remember - Arty's show is 90% illusion. he hires FX specialists, concocts a dubious religion...all because he isn't "freaky" enough himself. Hitler creates a mythology around himself too. Nazism and Arturism - there's a lot in common.

[QUOTE=Barca Boy;949291]
What is it that really motivates Arty, money, greed, power or does he just want everyone to be more like him?[/QUOTE]

Power, all the way. It was never about the money for Arty. It was only about having [I]power[/I], and [I]control[/I], and more than anybody else in the carnival, then the world. He was greedy and he was jealous. The twins never had to work at anything to draw a crowd. Granted, they became brilliant piano players, but they didn't need to. They were never competitive with Arty. But he was the oldest child, and he was jealous of everyone else after him (thus the reason he tried to kill Chick and probably Leona). He couldn't bare the thought of anyone being above him, so he slowly takes over the carnival and everything else.
What really I think hit home was that part when he was trying to hit Olympia with that broom or something, and he couldn't even hold it because of his flippers. Reguardless of how much mental power he had, physically, he was still useless, which made him strive to get more and more power over everyone around him.