Wine and all things related to the juice

On storage, I have heard two opposing positions. All the wine racks I have ever seen store the bottle tipped slightly downward, alledgedly to keep the cork moist. Now I am reading that is a bad thing, as the alcohol will degrade the cork. Which is it?

[QUOTE=McMuddle]On storage, I have heard two opposing positions. All the wine racks I have ever seen store the bottle tipped slightly downward, alledgedly to keep the cork moist. Now I am reading that is a bad thing, as the alcohol will degrade the cork. Which is it?[/QUOTE]

perfectly level or with the neck just slightly raised is teh best. the neck pointing down forces teh issue of contact between wine and cork too much. this will often times result in premature cork failure and teh oxidization of the wine. this makes teh wine flat. have you ever gone back and tasted some wine that you left open from teh night before? it loses it's zing (acidity) and crispness. the oxygen literally softens the wine to blandness.

so flat is teh best way fo long term storage. by long term i mean beyond say three months. if you are going to drink it within that time frame, it really doesn't matter. and far more important to position of the bottle is temperature (55 degrees) and humidity (80%) - these things keep the wine in more of a dormant state and the cork moist on the outside as well as the inside. as the cork dries out, it shrinks. and if it shrinks, it allows wine to seep past and oxygen to enter the bottle, even on a very very small scale this can affect the wine adversely.

whew. any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.

what's so special about "ice wine"?

[QUOTE=arizona-bay]what's so special about "ice wine"?[/QUOTE]

the amount of time and labor versus yield, basically.

three things have to happen in a given year that cannot be induced by mankind:

1) a mediocre enough crop to make the winemaker take the risk of making ice wine versus regular, like Port, if it is a bad year for the table wine grapes, they opt for port, if its a great year for table wine grapes, then port doesn't get made, this is why you only see vintage port is certain years, generally every five years or so. and anything that only occurs that rarely, well, the price goes up...

2) a mold called boytritis has to set in which occurs in very limited conditions - this makes the sugars in the grape skyrocket so you have naturally occuring sugars. that is the key. anyone can sweeten a wine artificially, but the sugars do not "meld" with the componenets inherent in the grape, so it just tastes sweet, withouth the honeysuckle, creme brulee graham cracker yummy goodness you get from a good ice wine.

3) a thorough freeze must occur. the freeze is the key to the limited production. when a grape freezes on the vine, the water is crystalized, but everything else in the grape is just a sludge. this allows the winemaker to seperate the water from the grape, therefore making a very concentrated wine that usually feels thicker on your palate (viscosity.) when you consider a typical acre of vines yields about 3 tons of grapes and icewine/sauternes yield enough for only a few cases of wine - you see why the winemaker has to charge more for the effort. all the water is gone, so there is less to bottle

but why are they so sought after? taste one. any of the Okanagan (sp?) ones from Canada or the TBA's from Germany are beautiful examples of a thick sweet and citrusy wine that has all manner of flavors in it, from floral to bakery spices, and they stay on your palate forever, so the flavor is more intense and lasts longer than most any wine.

Sideways was brilliant, but that's from someone knowing nothing about wine. Do you think it was accurate?

Are you thinking of starting your own vineyard?

And is wine in American becoming as well respected as it is abroad, specifically France and Europe? Meaning, is the market as strong here, my guess is no, but is it growing?

As an aside:
The only other exposure I've had to wine was when my father designed all the labels and graphics for [URL=http://www.stargazersvineyard.com/]STARGAZERS VINEYARD[/URL]. Wonderful place. When they have wine tasting it's at night. The vineyard is on rolling hills far away from city lights. They have an enormous telescope for stargazing, hence the name.

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]Sideways was brilliant, but that's from someone knowing nothing about wine. Do you think it was accurate?[/QUOTE]

it was accurate in a lot of ways, there is snobbery in this business as it is technically classified as a luxury item, and therefore garners those types who hunt out the finer things, who gawk at the Robb Report, etc... the whole Pinot vs. Merlot debate has been going for years, and Merlot has been the red-headed stepchild for some time, and Pinot the Queen of all Grapes. the hospitality shown at some tasting rooms versus teh herded cattle treatment of others was reflected rather well. and teh alcoholism was regrettably on teh money too. some of my frineds have had to "retire" from the business due to the lure of a constant and usually free source of the last legal drug. it also makes making a living a challenge, you have to keep your head about you when mkign deals where tehre ar 21 open bottles of grade a plonk on the table. lose your lunch = lose your account.

but mostly i think sideways used wine as a pretty clever vehicle for a tale of a writer who wants out of his current demise, and a shallow actor who is afraid of commitment and the resulting loss in free-range poon.

everyone in teh business loved it if for no other reason than it spiked wine sales across the country and you had clueless soccer moms asking for Pinot and exclaiming publicly their disdain for merlot (while they had three bottles in their fridge.)

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]Are you thinking of starting your own vineyard?[/QUOTE]

it'd take a ton of cash. i always wanted to get a hold of some willamette valley property in oregeon to grow pinot and make The Worlds Best, but that window of "affordability" closed about ten years ago. nowadays to buy existign vineyards worth a damn is gonna set you back in excess of 250k/acre - and you need at least 5 acres to make any impact in teh market (read: cover your loss) so until i write The World's best novel or roba bank for seed money, it's probably best that i stay on my end of the pool. but yes, someday...

reminds me of a quote that circulates among wine makers:' Want to make a small fortune in the wine business? Start with a large one..." and it's usually true - you have guys in Oregon that are ex-pharamceutical billionaires, ex microsoft employees, ex-starbucks founders, and all the recent celebtrity types - it takes that kind of cash and a seven to ten year window before you see a return, so it has to be a labor of love and a leech on a rather fat bank account. genrally.

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]And is wine in American becoming as well respected as it is abroad, specifically France and Europe? Meaning, is the market as strong here, my guess is no, but is it growing?[/QUOTE]

this year US surpassed france as the #1 wine consumption nation in the world, and is now #2 after France in production, i my facts are straight. so the growth is fantastic. as far as what we grow - we are gaining strides in some areas, losing it others. Pinot from oregon and Sonoma is growing, Chard and Syrah are kinda stagnant, while low end cabs are getting beaten up by spectacular wines from Chile/Argentina. but all in all its a growth market (my daughter and my creditors are very happy for that.)

[QUOTE=Dr.Jekyll&Mr.Hyde]As an aside:
The only other exposure I've had to wine was when my father designed all the labels and graphics for [URL=http://www.stargazersvineyard.com/]STARGAZERS VINEYARD[/URL]. Wonderful place. When they have wine tasting it's at night. The vineyard is on rolling hills far away from city lights. They have an enormous telescope for stargazing, hence the name.[/QUOTE]

checked out the website, nice concept - good label - there is a ton of importance placed on label design in the wine business. i have only had a few wines from PA, but the Cab Franc and the dessert wines seem to do the best due to the cooler climate. Long Island is making some killer wines as well as Virgina and the Carolinas - places never associated with wine production in the past.

Any opinion on the film Mondovino ?
Also, where did you learn all that knowledge of yours ?

In fact the consumption and production rankings you are providing do not surprise me, because France as a consuming country has been declining for decades, and the production is in a deep crisis.

I love this thread, it makes me think of my late grandfather who produced muscadet.

[QUOTE=franc tireur]Any opinion on the film Mondovino ?.[/QUOTE]

awesomely hard core - and slanted. made Parker look like an idiot in a lot of ways, made Rosenthal look like the second coming of Christ (though in a lot of Franc'es Loire valley he is due to his uphill determination to get America to enjoy those relatively unknown and very well made wines) and teh broad from Staglin came off as the worst kind of Napa Valley Blue Blood you'd ever hope to meet. but then I've met her, and that is her 100% - you'd think she'd tone it down for the film, but her ego won that inner struggle.

[QUOTE=franc tireur]Also, where did you learn all that knowledge of yours ?.[/QUOTE]

long story - but a good one - i was waiting tables while getting my IT degrees, got the "dream job' sitting in front of a pc for 9 hours a day - hated it. went back to restaurant but loved teh wine aspect - had a chat with a friend in teh business and asked him what to do - he said go work at some liquor store as a wine buyer, no money but TONS of experience - i did and it was true, met some serious players, tasted all manner of juice, and made the relationships needed to move on into my own, worked with a distributor (wholesaler) for a few years and found a nice little slot for me in the broker as pect of it all. so it's mostly on the job, but a lot of attending tastings off the clock, discussion and tasting with friends/peers and a lot of reading/writing on the subject.

[QUOTE=franc tireur]In fact the consumption and production rankings you are providing do not surprise me, because France as a consuming country has been declining for decades, and the production is in a deep crisis..[/QUOTE]

bewteen the newer DWI laws and the influx of new world wine in the country, plus the resurgence of teh cocktail in teh major metropolitan areas of france, it is affecting the production to the point of some considering ripping up vines, or teh government even suggesting converting their grapes to enthanol for alternative fuel! Sacre bleu!

[QUOTE=franc tireur]I love this thread, it makes me think of my late grandfather who produced muscadet.[/QUOTE]

Wine is such a nostalgic/romantic thing - one of the best aspects of my work, everyone is glad to see me when i have my bottle bag in tow.

[QUOTE=mirka]I have a couple of questions about wine service. I used to wait tables and there were a couple of things I always wondered about. Sometimes the person ordering the wine, would ask their companion to taste it. Now, I thought the reason the person ordering the wine, [I]tasted[/I], was in case the wine had gone bad in some way, yes? So why have a guest taste something corked or gone, isn't the host suppposed to spare the guests palate? [/QUOTE]

I'm guessing here, but i waited tables for aeons too. usually this indicates the companion is the "critic" and therefore has to pass judgement on the bottle. this is generally poor etiquette because of the reason you cited - if the wine is flawed, you have just subjected your guest to it. but who knows why people do what they do. in this case, if the guest is the expert, they should be ordering...

[QUOTE=mirka]Also, sometimes a person would swirl and smell the wine and then nod or ask me to pour without tasting it. I always thought that was kind of classy. Is that an affectation? Or can one determine a wine is pourable, simply by scent?

Thank you.[/QUOTE]

yes. 80% of what you "taste" is actually what you smell. this is fact. as you know your sinuses are connected to your throat, so in addition to simply smelling the wine from inside the glass, you get some of its character inside your mouth also. now the caveat is that this usually applies to people who order a wine they are familiar with. for example, if i order a 2002 Chehalem reseve, I'm going to know immediately if something is off. but generally you are sniffing for "corked" wine. this is readily apparent because you will get a musty, moldy smell, possibly some bleach-esque notes as well. but in addition to corked wine, you can tell alot by the nose about how the wine is stored, if it is in line with its age, i.e. has the wine prematurely ages due to heat or poor storage conditions.

so in addition to looking like you know what you are doing, it does indeed serve a purpose. but it gets weirder. the glass you use can make a difference as well. i went to a class where the premier crystal wine glass maker in Europe proposed that their system of matching glassware to wine is credible. for the longest time i thought a glass was a glass was a glass. but it does make a difference. read about it more here at [url]www.riedel.com[/url] these are the guys who stumbled upon the whole idea. so if you have a plain jane libbey fat glass goblet - your wine is going to taste and smell different in a purpose built glass with a thin bowl, and a shape that accentuates the profile of the wine.

anyhow - i think that answers your question and then some.

cheers.

[QUOTE=McMuddle]A local winery just began offering wines made from the 'second pressing' of the grapes. What differs (if anything) in the juice and final product by using only 'second pressings'?[/QUOTE]

this is like comparing the difference between a fresh stick of gum and one you bummed from your girlfriend that she has smacked on for a few minutes - it still has some flavor in it, it's not as profoun a flavor as it was new, but it is cheaper than buying your own gum...

basically it's a way for wineries to generate an additional revenue stream - they use a soft basket repss emthod to gently crush the grapes, or even a free-run method so the skins aren't bruised resulting in premature sugar production. so the first press is generally the best, as in olive oil. but the grapes aren't spent - they still have some juice in them, but they are then pressed a bit harder, which results in mroe breakdown of teh tissues within the grape, i.e less pure "juice" and more matter from the fruit that can add higher acidity, "stemmy" or "green" flavors to the wine.

this wine is usually sold as a second label (different name and pricepoint) or sold on the bulk market to virtual wineries (they own no vines) or smaller winemakers.

second presses from red grapes can also make good rose or pink wines. there are a few notable examples where a winemaker makes a killer cabernet or zinfandel and uses the excess grapes to make a lighter style rose, or some other wine altogether.

then you have grappa - where they take the pumice the drained fruit and make their white lightening with it. it used to be the swill of the working class, now it;s all the freaking rage. the italians have to be laughing to death right now.

[QUOTE=kasey_carpenter]I'm guessing here, but i waited tables for aeons too. usually this indicates the companion is the "critic" and therefore has to pass judgement on the bottle. this is generally poor etiquette because of the reason you cited - if the wine is flawed, you have just subjected your guest to it. but who knows why people do what they do. in this case, if the guest is the expert, they should be ordering...

yes. 80% of what you "taste" is actually what you smell. this is fact. as you know your sinuses are connected to your throat, so in addition to simply smelling the wine from inside the glass, you get some of its character inside your mouth also. now the caveat is that this usually applies to people who order a wine they are familiar with. for example, if i order a 2002 Chehalem reseve, I'm going to know immediately if something is off. but generally you are sniffing for "corked" wine. this is readily apparent because you will get a musty, moldy smell, possibly some bleach-esque notes as well. but in addition to corked wine, you can tell alot by the nose about how the wine is stored, if it is in line with its age, i.e. has the wine prematurely ages due to heat or poor storage conditions.

so in addition to looking like you know what you are doing, it does indeed serve a purpose. but it gets weirder. the glass you use can make a difference as well. i went to a class where the premier crystal wine glass maker in Europe proposed that their system of matching glassware to wine is credible. for the longest time i thought a glass was a glass was a glass. but it does make a difference. read about it more here at [url]www.riedel.com[/url] these are the guys who stumbled upon the whole idea. so if you have a plain jane libbey fat glass goblet - your wine is going to taste and smell different in a purpose built glass with a thin bowl, and a shape that accentuates the profile of the wine.

anyhow - i think that answers your question and then some.

cheers.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! great information. :)

I looked at that website and kind of got lost. I didn't even realize there were so many different wines. It's interesting that someone made a science of glassware in order to fully appreciate the character of different wines.

I don't suppose you know a type of glass that can make cheap wine more palatable? ;) That's a bit of a joke, but a real question too. In terms of reds I've found that opening the bottle and letting it sit two days will mellow it out and make it drinkable. (This is from the days when a circle of friends and I would have "$5 and under" Trader Joe wine tastings. I remember [I]Gato Negro[/I] from Chile being a hit at the time)

does anyone have any recommendations for a good wine for someone who hasn't had wine before? about the only time i've had wine was when i went to my friend's house and they served the jewish sweet wine. i didn't want to be a bad guest so i had some. also, once i shared a bottle of cheap 2 dollar champagne with a friend.

gracias! damn, i can't stop thinking in spanish. silly housemates, learn to speak english.

[QUOTE=spacemonkey1888]is it long necks or short necked bottles that are meant to sit and ferment longer?[/QUOTE]

you are talking beer?

[QUOTE=spacemonkey1888]good dirt cheap wine is Yellow Tail, any kind

or Montepulciano[/QUOTE]

i'll forgive the yellowtail.

:friday:

no, it;s good wine, just a lot of bad politics and business behind the brand. but that style, yes, not a bad way to cut one's teeth.
\barbera d'asti could be added to that list, and can be had for pretty cheap, plus some Loire valley reds, washington syrah as well. all can be had for around ten bucks or less.

[QUOTE=ally]i hate spending my own money on alcohol.[/QUOTE]

that's why I'm in this business, all the free booze i can handle.
:D

[QUOTE=mirka]I like whites like Viognier which to the best of my ability I would ability would I describe as crisp or Sauvignon Blanc, which tastes like a picnic, kind of grassy tasting but boozy, like something straight but not bracing. Like the Vodka of wine? (Sorry, I don't know how to describe it in the correct terms) My sister drinks California Chardonnay exclusively and hates the white wines I have in my cupboard. I plan on getting some of the Gold label Columbia Crest you mentioned earlier, but is there a middle ground white that we could share over a dinner?

Oh, andthank you, I just found out that I am fruity when it comes to 'sweet". I reach for Zins and Shiraz when I reach for a red. :)[/QUOTE]

ah she's impressing me :cool2: Viognier would be the answer to your question in my book. or you may try some non-oaked chardnonnay - like the ones finished in stainless steel from Oregon (Chehalem INOX being the foremost example in my mind,) New Zealand or Australia. those wines generally have less of what most people hate about Chard and more of what people like about Viognier and SauvBlanc, while still being 100% chardonnay.

stay away from SauvBlanc for her, it'll freak her out, too much of that thistle and mineral thing, but a soft Viognier I would think would do the trick, probably one fermented in oak versus stainless steel (though you and i would probably prefer the latter.) Also maybe a Semillon/SauvBlanc blend like the kinds found in Entre Deux Mer or New Zealand. Chenin is a fat boy alot like a big ol riesling, but when you "cut" it with SvBlanc, it mellows out.

and don't undersell your honest descriptions, remember, wine is subjective, so what you say may be different from what i say or some well heeled wine critic says: the great is that we are all right in the end.

Can you recommend a sparkling wine? I stumbled onto Giovello Prosecco by accident ( I wanted the blue glass bottle for a project) and liked it! Good 'hot summer day' drink for out on the roof. Any others? And what is the connosieurs' opinions on fizzed wines?

Learned more about wine here than I ever did visiting a vineyard. KC, thanks for answering my questions. I thought you were heading out north, have no idea what wine culture is this way, but you do the research and I'll drink the juice..... properly. Cheers,...:)

[IMG]http://members.aol.com/drjekyll8mrhyde/wine.jpg[/IMG]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][COLOR=Purple]WINE FACTS[/COLOR][/FONT]
Q & A (part 1)
1. How many acres are planted to grapes worldwide?
2. Among the world's fruit crops, where do wine grapes rank in number of acres planted?
3. How many countries import California wines?
4. What was the primary fruit crop in Napa Valley during the 1940's?
5. How many gallons of wine were lost in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake?
6. When was phylloxera first discovered in California?
7. How many acres of Napa County vineyards have been replanted in the last 15 years because of phylloxera?
8. How many more acres of Napa County vineyards will need replacement?
9. How long does it take to harvest a commercial crop from newly replanted grape vines?
10. How many varieties of wine grapes exist worldwide?
11. How much does it cost per bottle to age wine in a French oak barrel?
12. How much does it cost per bottle to age wine in only new French oak barrels?
13. How much white zinfandel is consumed in this country?

Answers:
1) 20 million
2) #1
3) 164
4) Prunes
5) 30 million
6) August 19, 1873
7) 10,450
8) 4,450
9) 4-5 years
10) 10,000
11) 90 cents
12) $2.50
13) Too much!

[QUOTE=McMuddle]Can you recommend a sparkling wine? I stumbled onto Giovello Prosecco by accident ( I wanted the blue glass bottle for a project) and liked it! Good 'hot summer day' drink for out on the roof. Any others? And what is the connosieurs' opinions on fizzed wines?[/QUOTE]

I love prosecco. zardetto is the most accesible of the bunch (read: mass produced.)

for true champagne i think vintage Salon is the poopoo (85 or 90 - but bring your wallet) it will beat the Crizzie any day, but let the rappers drink up all the cristal.

Laurent Perrier makes a great rose as does Billecart-Salmon.

the best out of Cali are Roederer Alexander and pretty much anything Schramsberg.

the "connosieur;s" opinion of fizzed wine is faceted between regions - your champagne snobs hold true to their brands, some more open minded people embrace italian prosecco and cava from spain (cristalino is a good cheap one with a nice lime component to it, great over sorbet!) and most critics are hard on the domestic stuff, but i think only because it's "cool" to do so.