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Homosexual overtones in Palahniuk books?
First - let me say that I am in no way being critical of Chuck's sexuality in this thread.
I have recently been reading up on Gay, Lesbian, and Queer Criticism and how it constructed itself within the novels of homosexual writers, poets and otherwise. Most times these writers will subliminally or very overtly paste the experiences that come with being the "other" sexual affiliation - alienation, same-sex bonding even if not sexual, phallic and female symbols, oppression, and so on and so forth. I haven't read a Chuck book since Haunted was released (and I would honestly rather forget it) so I thought it would be interesting to look into this texts and see how Chuck's sexual preference presented itself in the novels.
Some seem obvious, at least to me.
I refer most obviously to homosocial bonding between the narrator and Tyler in [U]FC[/U] that might not ever transform itself sexually, but still has a tension of overt jealousy and deep-rooted attraction or fondness for Durden. Even when not sexual, this type of bonding is seen to build community and a sense of human identity that is trivalized in everyday culture due to the anxiety in homogonized society directed at a same-sex preference.
I think the most pointedly gay or homosexually-oriented novel is [U]Invisible Monsters[/U]. My memories are sporadic and unfulfilling in this regard, but shuffling through the basic concepts left seem to leave me remembering the main character's brother dying of AIDS, a decidedly gay stereotype (yet he came back, I forget how, someone please refresh me), to the transexual nature of Brandy Alexander (her brother? again, refresh me).
I think the nature of this novel in itself - commentary on the social image of beauty, cosmetic surgery and consumerism - is decidedly gay in nature and seemingly only would be attacked or approached this abrasively by a gay novelist.
It's also notable that this book was in fact Chuck's first, and to most that first novel is some harrowing transcription of one's life story or something thematically similar that drives, or inspires, the writer. Thereforth can be a mix of the spur of the moment ideas or emotion, but most would agree that that first novel is the blood boiling on the stove for the longest time - the most engaging and driving ideas and convinctions of the writer there transcribed on the page.
Public critique has described Chuck as "embarassed" of his own sexuality and that might be partially rooted in the title and main character of the novel itself - a "Invisible Monster", as it were.
Some basic research also revealed some trechant criticism from female reviewers that proclaim Chuck sexist -
[i]Still, there are even more serious accusations made against Palahniuk's work. Critics have claimed that they see elements of sexism in his writing. Much of this has fallen on the film adaptation of Fight Club, though it is worth noting that the screenplay was not written by Palahniuk himself. Still, there are those who claim his novels also contain sexist statements. Most famous amongst these critics is Laura Miller of Salon.com, who wrote a scathing review of Diary.[10] Fans have made counterarguments against these accusations, noting that characters who hold these opinions at one point in the novel will change for the better over the course of the story. In particular, some fans (as well as Palahniuk himself) have retorted to Miller's accusations of sexism in Salon's Letters section.[11] Many have argued that Miller and similar critics ignore the existence of Palahniuk's female fans; in fact, some of those who criticized Miller's review are female fans themselves. However, these instances neither prove nor disprove his supposed sexist overtones.[/i]
Reading this paragraph makes these elements come to the forefront at a more alarming rate - although I discount it - I do feel the elements of male emphasis and slight demonizing of the female sex , although I feel it is not disfiguring or "othering" in any way.
This is only touching base on the ever present elements of Chuck's sexuality in the text and I would love to hear what others have to add to my displaced memory banks in regards to the subject.
"Hero" isn't the right word, but it's the first word that comes to mind.
I haven't read a Chuck book since Haunted was released either.
Is Elmore Leonard gay? There's this one thing in one of his books where some character says he wants to drink a vodka gimlet out of some chicks can. It made me wonder..
that was so wrongful i should definitely get a apologies, especially of tony's half.
Nice job on the Parka there Mirk.
You been drinkin'?
Chuck writes books? I thought he just did that movie. What was it?....Fighter Club?
I think there are homo over and undertones in just about everything. Finding them just depends on how horny you are. ( I like to use the word horney)
I've also noticed that whenever there is a book or movie with strong male to male relationships...it's gay.
It perpetuates the stereotype that men cannot have deep relationships without having thier dangley bits played with.
i really dislike this shit and my fall back quote is gore vidals "There's no such thing as a homosexual, there's a homosexual act.' so howz there a homosexual book except maybe in marketing terms, don't answer just choke on it. by the way leonards friends call him Dutch and thats gay as fuck.
[QUOTE=morey]i really dislike this shit and my fall back quote is gore vidals "There's no such thing as a homosexual, there's a homosexual act.' so howz there a homosexual book except maybe in marketing terms, don't answer just choke on it. by the way leonards friends call him Dutch and thats gay as fuck.[/QUOTE]
I'd love to LOVE you baby, but that would make me a fag hag. :rolleyes:
I LOVE YOU MOREY.
that was so wrongful i should definitely get a apologies, especially of tony's half.
[QUOTE=Smartazboy]Oh yeah, RK's right. Mirks drunk. ;)[/QUOTE]
I'm not. I've always loved morey. I've always made fun of pretension. So...?
that was so wrongful i should definitely get a apologies, especially of tony's half.
[QUOTE=morey]jane, Brak, and Moon got hats, and there were no more but i got my eye out.[/QUOTE]
Oh man. 3 hats went out?? Oh man. I'm a gonna get all breeder like and freak. :rolleyes:
that was so wrongful i should definitely get a apologies, especially of tony's half.
[QUOTE=rkdaley]Nice job on the Parka there Mirk.
You been drinkin'?
Chuck writes books? I thought he just did that movie. What was it?....Fighter Club?
I think there are homo over and undertones in just about everything. Finding them just depends on how horny you are. ( I like to use the word horney)
I've also noticed that whenever there is a book or movie with strong male to male relationships...it's gay.
It perpetuates the stereotype that men cannot have deep relationships without having thier dangley bits played with.[/QUOTE]
i was gonna say what he said exepoct 90 bucks at the bar later he said it a lot better and a lot sooner then i did !
[QUOTE=mirka]Holy shit, you do! Who the hell got my hat that time?[/QUOTE]
ddi you send brown that hat that one time ? i remember you telling him you were then he didnt know what the hell was on the hat so i junpmed in and claimed it but now i dont rememeber what was on the hat so who knows !
anyhow anything can be made to sound 'gay'
i dont care what it is
itys all a matter of the spoin you want to put on it
go ahead anyone say anything i bet i can find some interpretation of it s gay !
chuck aint a gay author
i think hed give all the money back and one testicle if that could be overlooked by the 4 people that are pre occupied with it and just be considered an 'author ' with no hyphenated word with it whatsoever
but then again im not gay so what do i know
[QUOTE=karbunkle]ddi you send brown that hat that one time ? i remember you telling him you were then he didnt know what the hell was on the hat so i junpmed in and claimed it but now i dont rememeber what was on the hat so who knows ![/QUOTE]
No the hat is still in the back seat of my car. I want to bake you some cookies and write a letter to send along with it, but I've been really busy.
I won the hat at this bar called the[B] Tattle Tale [/B] playing some quarters type game. Anyway, I just think that's the greatest name for a bar, but I don't wear caps.
that was so wrongful i should definitely get a apologies, especially of tony's half.
i think Chuck's photo on the sleeve of Haunted is handsome....i admit it....it was part of the pull that made me buy it....does that mean i'm shallow?
[IMG]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/fan/workshop/topdogs/Mark_Grover_Junior_copy_editor.gif[/IMG]
wait.. chuck's a fag?
sorry i had to say it
there are sexual overtones in anything. i really dont think chuck's sexuality has anything to do with it. i could write a gay character if i wanted to. doesnt mean im gay
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/animasola/pillar_banner.gif[/IMG]
Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more.
"Hero" isn't the right word, but it's the first word that comes to mind.
[QUOTE=ModernJesus]Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more.[/QUOTE]
very well put, i'm glad somebody approached the question from this angle.
it appears as though there is some unspoken agreement among us that there might be some sort of problem with chuck writing about homosexuality, even though i'm sure that very few of us actually feel that way.
i personally always respected Chuck immensely for being a homosexual yet not being a "homosexual author" but if he was to suddenly write about homosexuality i would admittely cringe at the thought of his writing being used as a tool for politically correct cliche crap but would also gladly admit that he had more than earned the right to get more personal in his work.
i'd like to add this: i bet if it came out that Chuck was secretly a christian, for example, within an hour there would be over a dozen examples posted in the threads of his hidden christian agenda, and three times as many people saying, 'i told you so.'
after all, an author could write a work of fiction and in it repeatedly say "God is real!" and readers would still be able to disect the entire book to the point of making the repeated theistic declaration seem like satire or merely commentary.
i like to think that Chuck is a sexual person, who happens to be homosexual.
look at [COLOR=Blue]House[/COLOR] Of Leaves... the book has so much sexuality in it, yet it is such an incredible piece of fiction.
what's the difference between the narration of the journal writer in [COLOR=Blue]House [/COLOR]cumming on that girls tits, and the intro to Choke with the sex addict getting his dog ridden by a fellow nympho?
nothing, except the personal sexual preference of the respective authors.
nobody concerns themsevles with Mark D's sexuality though. why? because he's straight, and chuck is gay?
wtf, over?
now women and children hate me!
and the army sure won't take me!
so how do i earn my living?
by killing the baby seals! ar ar!
[COLOR=DarkRed][URL=http://community.webshots.com/user/coloradoizen]pics[/URL] [URL=http://www.myspace.com/colorblindizen]myspace[/URL][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=snuffy]i'm not gay, but i just really like chuck's books a lot.[/QUOTE]
one more and you've got a 'i'm not gay but' trifecta going on up in here.
now women and children hate me!
and the army sure won't take me!
so how do i earn my living?
by killing the baby seals! ar ar!
[COLOR=DarkRed][URL=http://community.webshots.com/user/coloradoizen]pics[/URL] [URL=http://www.myspace.com/colorblindizen]myspace[/URL][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=ModernJesus]Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more.[/QUOTE]God your a dumb ass, who cares! its a huge [B]non[/B] you dumb homophobic ass. Besides if you've already read his books, its too late he's done gone and put his gay hoodoo all up in you already!
where's the contradicting thread to this....you know someone should make it....The Straight Overtones in Palahniuk books.
Its come to my attention after shoot'n massive loads on my girls chest and reading chuck's books afterwards that his characters sure know how to fuck a girl. For example in Choke....
[QUOTE=ModernJesus]Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more.[/QUOTE]
If I may borrow your vehement use of caps. I TOTALLY DISAGREE. I'm not an ignorant reader or politically correct because I don't feel the need to speculate about a writer's personal life in order to appreciate or understand their work. Do I need to know who Hemingway was fucking to marvel the genius of[B] Hills Like White Elephants[/B]. Do I need to know how many brothers and sisters Salinger has so I can say [B]Franny and Zooey [/B] is one of my favorite books?
I don't care if Ranier Maria Rilke was manic or a bastard or gay. He wrote the DUINO ELEGIES. Prying into his personal affairs would make me a very ungrateful reader. THE DUINO ELEGIES, man.
And I also believe that writing is a craft. That a good writer can make a world of his/her design to tell the story they feel is worth telling. It's not that teenage writing crap where you need to get it out so the world will understand how [I]deep [/I] you are. It's crafting, editing, loving words, [I]using [/I] them to bring something to life.
So I do like to poke fun at people that visit this site to discuss Chuck's personal life. Like it [I]matters[/I]. How is[B] Invisible Monsters [/B] better if Chuck is gay? I don't get it.
that was so wrongful i should definitely get a apologies, especially of tony's half.
[QUOTE=ModernJesus]Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more.[/QUOTE]
This whole [I]I Read Too Deeply Into Things And Therefore Everything Must Have A Deeper Meaning[/I] line of thinking reeks of someone who has some personal agenda that they want to have defined by something they think they read.
Mirkah was right on with what she said.
Not everything you read has to be an absolute truth. That's why it's called fiction. Sure, those of us who write draw in part from the well of personal experience that we have. But that well doesn't neccesarily flood over into everything else to where everything is just some subliminal message of ourselves that we're crying to get out. It is what it is, and it's not what it isn't. We write in large part to create a world that we've never seen. To experience things that we've never experienced.
I wrote a book that involved a character stealing a bunch of shit from the place he worked. I've never done that. And the character drove across country, befriending complete strangers. The furthest west I've been in Sandusky, Ohio. And I'm not the type to talk to complete strangers. The main character and his ex-girlfriend had sex on a million dollars. I'm pretty sure that's never happened to me either--although, I suppose if I had a million dollars just lying around I'd be having a lot more sex...maybe not. There are elements of me in that story, sure. But that story is not me. And you don't need to know me to be able to understand it.
Again, Mirkah was right.
.jpg "Dr.Jekyll8Mr.Hyde's picture")
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by ModernJesus
Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more. [/QUOTE]
I can't eliminate that writers draw from their experiences. To a certain extent I’m sure chuck has done it. Yet like Mirka and Justin stressed Chuck is a fiction writer who studies the craft, and personally I think he draws from more research than life experience. Actually I think his first love is journalism, the discovery of other peoples stories, and learning how to tell those stories in the best possible ways—meaning his personal life has little to no influence.
Read his essays and you'll see how much he studies the craft. Read his books and you see his obsession with facts and complex plots.
The man pulls mostly from exhaustive research. Hope I don’t get slapped for this but I’m quoting him from the last Q&A:
“Writing gives me permission to research and explore topics I'm curious about.”—Mr. Chuck
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by ModernJesus:
Some basic research also revealed some trechant criticism from female reviewers that proclaim Chuck sexist -
Still, there are even more serious accusations made against Palahniuk's work. Critics have claimed that they see elements of sexism in his writing. Much of this has fallen on the film adaptation of Fight Club, though it is worth noting that the screenplay was not written by Palahniuk himself. Still, there are those who claim his novels also contain sexist statements. Most famous amongst these critics is Laura Miller of Salon.com, who wrote a scathing review of Diary.[10] Fans have made counterarguments against these accusations, noting that characters who hold these opinions at one point in the novel will change for the better over the course of the story. In particular, some fans (as well as Palahniuk himself) have retorted to Miller's accusations of sexism in Salon's Letters section.[11] Many have argued that Miller and similar critics ignore the existence of Palahniuk's female fans; in fact, some of those who criticized Miller's review are female fans themselves. However, these instances neither prove nor disprove his supposed sexist overtones.[/QUOTE]
i'm tired of this argument. It seems like every author that writes about sex aggressively is a sexist. No, chuck is brutally honest. And if this critic read [I]Diary [/I] as sexist book then she's missing the point or is a fool. ah, ahhh
If chuck's sexual preference never got out I'm sure he would have been labeled as homophobe.
If I was a gay, I'd still like Chuck's books!
The mind is the limit. I am going to be the best personal trainer to ever exist on this earth. I am going to inspire, motivate, and change lives. I have that power. There is not a doubt in my mind that I can make you have an orgasm just from the power of my mind via the internet. I'm a giver like that. I can heal you. I can make you whole. That's Brock. That's what I do. Moving on...
Hello, im new to the site but a long time palahniuk reader. I only recently heard that he was gay and I would never have guessed that he was homosexual.
I am curious as to why his books are all told from the point of view of straight people. Is it perhaps a marketing decision or what? I was just curious.
[QUOTE=stimpy]Hello, im new to the site but a long time palahniuk reader. I only recently heard that he was gay and I would never have guessed that he was homosexual.
I am curious as to why his books are all told from the point of view of straight people. Is it perhaps a marketing decision or what? I was just curious.[/QUOTE]
Remember, chuck writes fiction. The characters carry his desired context, story, message, a WHat have you. Meaning the type of characters are chosen because they carry the story in the best possible way. I'm sure if he wanted to tell a story where a homosexual character was needed he would. So my point is his sexual preferences are irrelevant in the case of storytelling. The starter of this thread was arguing for the subconscious, which I don't have the eyes to pick up again tonight. HOpe that kind of answers a shaving of your question.
Welcome to the crypt, I mean cult....:)
[QUOTE=ModernJesus]Our own personal experience drives EVERYTHING WE DO. Even if you choose to deny it because it's politically incorrect, it's inevitable that Chuck wiped elements of his unconcious mind onto these books. Were they direct ploys, or commentary about gay lifestyle or social acceptance, or concious decisions on Chuck's part? Possibly not.
But to refute that Chuck's personal experience would not somehow reflect the page is being a rather ignorant reader. Everything we say, write or do says a little about us as a person. Entire novels say much, much more.[/QUOTE]
So everything chuck does, even if it's not gay, shows that he's gay?
I suppose your statements can then lead us to believe you are gay (since you seem to like to focus on this particular subject) and you keenly ignore the obvious (Haunted is the last book to come out and there are many threads already on the topic of Chuck's homosexuality and the presence of it in his writing). I wonder, did you so keenly notice these undertones [i]before[/i] Chucky P. came out (however unwillingly)? And what about the fact that (and this is how read it) Chuck isn't [i]gay[/i] but rather, well: "I've tried girls. I've tried guys. I just so happens I've been with the same man for eight years."
But I suppose a person's writing does mirror them... What kind of font defines me as a person?
Tennessee Williams once said that could not write a central male character that he was not attracted to. Bottom line is these things do effect ones writing and artwork. There are no doubt overtones or undertones of homosexuality in Chuck's writing. However, to look at Chuck as a purely homosexual writer, or to ignore other interpretations of his work is just ridiculous. Much like it would be unfulfilling to regard "A Streetcar Named Desire" as a work of homosexual drama, the same goes for Choke, Inivisible Monsters or any other of Chuck's work.
1) Thanks for the entertainment Mr. Chuck
2) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
3) There is only one person on the planet whos sexuality concerns me, that is a spectacular Pirate Wench with a spectacular Pirate Chest and Booty....
Whatever anyone else does with their fuzzy bits doesn't interest me.
[SIGPIC][IMG]http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/McMuddle/song-of-south.jpg[/IMG][/SIGPIC]
[QUOTE=stimpy]Hello, im new to the site but a long time palahniuk reader. I only recently heard that he was gay and I would never have guessed that he was homosexual.
I am curious as to why his books are all told from the point of view of straight people. Is it perhaps a marketing decision or what? I was just curious.[/QUOTE]
Well, Chuck sure writes about penises and masturbation and anuses a lot, plus the whole male-bonding thing, so like, you do the gay-math...
Anuses? I don't know if I spelled that right or not... I was going for the plural of anus...
The mind is the limit. I am going to be the best personal trainer to ever exist on this earth. I am going to inspire, motivate, and change lives. I have that power. There is not a doubt in my mind that I can make you have an orgasm just from the power of my mind via the internet. I'm a giver like that. I can heal you. I can make you whole. That's Brock. That's what I do. Moving on...
If i may jump up even though this thread is fairly old...
I'm coming back into original fiction after nearly two years of fanfic. And I was a slash (aka homosexual relationship) fan (still am, only in the past week I've written so much more original fic than fanfic) and when I read Choke and Fight Club, my first thoughts were on the slash angle. Denny and Victor. The Narrator/Tyler (you'd be amazed at how much slash fic there is for this, which after reading the book/seeing the movie is just really werid...shagging the other half of your conscience...)
I think it depends on how you read it and what you're looking for what you find. I read both after being on a large slash binge, my brain naturally lept to TRYING to find the homosexual tones to it, after you start writing fanfic, you never look at anything the same way again, you start to look for what you can jump off on for your own plots, you start trying to find what relationships would make good fic, etc, etc. And after looking for slash angles for about the past 8 months, and then picking up Choke and rereading it, I started going "damn, there's so much slash potential here"
But I don't think it's INTENDED that way, I think it's all in how you're looking at it. You look at it from the right angle and you can find the potential in anything. Like the Disney slashers. Yes, there are people who find homoerotic relationships in The Lion King. Chuck's books have a lot of focus on the relationships between men, the way best friends react to one another, of course it's easy to see it as homosexual if you want to. It's just as easy to go back and see it as nothing more than male bonding.
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Cause celluloid heroes never feel any pain
And celluloid heroes never really die
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