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:mad: I know I sound like one of those whiners who complains about everything, but I'm a huge fan of Chuck's and I got really offended when I came across an incorrect Jewish reference in Lullaby. There is a paragraph that talks about a curse in a book of spells 'Sefer Ha-razim', where you put a puppy's head behind someones house to prevent them from sleeping. I found this to be totally absurd, because 1) Judaism is very clear that we are not to believe in witchcraft and sorcery, or any of that hocus-pocus so theres no ways that he should have put that in ( I know its fiction but still) and 2) I speak Hebrew quite well and as far as I know Sefer Ha-razim would translate roughly to 'book of the thins'? :confused:
I know I sound like one of those whiners who complains about everything, but I'm a huge fan of Chuck's and I got really offended when I came across an incorrect Jewish reference in Lullaby. There is a paragraph that talks about a curse in a book of spells 'Sefer Ha-razim', where you put a puppy's head behind someones house to prevent them from sleeping. I found this to be totally absurd, because 1) Judaism is very clear that we are not to believe in witchcraft and sorcery, or any of that hocus-pocus so theres no ways that he should have put that in ( I know its fiction but still) and 2) I speak Hebrew quite well and as far as I know Sefer Ha-razim would translate roughly to 'book of the winks'?
you're obviously not the most educated of people then, or well educated on jewish tradition. jews practically invented magic, or if you prefer, mysticism. jewish mystics have always performed "rituals" to invoke the presence of god, or action of god's part. even if you don't identify with jewish mystics, do you not consider praying to god for something to happen as being a form of magic? that in itself is ritualistic magic. you use certain phrases, certain body movements to request something from an entity that is supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful.
as for the [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Sefer+Ha-razim%22]Sefer Ha-razim[/url], it is a book of jewish magic basically. click on the name of the book, and explore away. oh, and it translates loosely into "The Book of Mysteries" or "Treatise on Mysteries".
educate yourself, you have all the information of the world at your fingertips.
.jpg "tbranson's picture")
well then I guess I'm going to have to get a refund on my 5 years of studying Judaism and its practices, I am orthodox and I do know quite a lot about my religion, as for Jews believing in curses that is utter bullshit in no way are we allowed to believe in curses or such black magic, and furthermore any magic for that matter, the religion is explicit that, yes such rituals do exist, but in no way are Jews allowed to partake in them. As for Sefer Ha-Razim translating to Book of Mysticism, then it would be called Sefer Ha-Raziot. Razim is a different word all together meaning thins (plural of thin) or Razam meaning winks. Oh and as for you asking if i don't consider praying for something to happen a form of magic, the answer is no because all the Jewish prayers I know are prayers of thanks to God or prayers praising Gods divinity. You obviously consider yourself a source of Jewish knowledge, so I must ask are you Jewish? And if you are or are not then where did you obtain such information, because I must alert all authorities in my religion that they have been teaching us incorrect information and practices and we must start living by what you have said.
no, i'm not jewish, and 5 years study may have gotten you far but like it's said "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing". i'm refering to judaism in general when i speak. i spean in genereal of the jewish mystical traditions, or in other words The Kabbala. am i saying all jews practice that form of magic? no, i'm saying magic is drawn heavily upon in much of the jewish religion.
and i do consider weraing phylacteries, the skull cap and the following of other traditions to be a form of magic. you are doing these things in order to invoke a certain response from a diety or in hopes of achieving a certain status upon death. religion it self is inherently a form of magic, and if oyu can't understand that, you need to take a step back from what you're studying and really ask why it's done that way.
Yes, I do agree with a bit of what you said in your last post and understand where you are coming from but in doing so you deviated from the point I was trying to make. The book talks about a CURSE, or SPELL not vague mysticism that can be found in the profundity of religion, what I was trying to say is that in no way would Judaism be affiliated to that sort of magic. But yes I do agree that there is a degree of mysticism in all religions. But the skullcap we wear, called a yamulkah, is actually to remind us that there is a god above us, so I don't affiliate that with magic or mysticism. Oh and as for your loose translation, no it doesn't translate to 'Book of mysteries', or 'treatise of mysteries', hebrew is not a very ambiguous language, 'Sefer' means only 'book', 'Ha' is a prefix meaning 'the', and Razim means 'thins', I think the word Razim should be replaced with RAZIOT meaning mysticism.
hey dipshit,
click on the link Tryp provided in his first post. He's not just being disagreeable, he's right. Literal translation does not [i]always[/i] apply. The agreed, academic translation is "book of mysteries".
Be the change you wish to see in the world.
just because you were taught something does not make it true. just because you paid for your knowledge does not make it accurate.
you were taught that "magic" does not exist because it was, and still is a powerful religious tool.
they don't want common people to have access to that kind of power.
you are being dumbed down in your quest for gaining what you call knowledge.
our technology and ideas today compare nothing to that which the ancients knew and used.
until the revolution we are all dreaming slaves.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tvsr [/i]
[B]just because you were taught something does not make it true. just because you paid for your knowledge does not make it accurate.
you were taught that "magic" does not exist because it was, and still is a powerful religious tool.
they don't want common people to have access to that kind of power.
you are being dumbed down in your quest for gaining what you call knowledge.
our technology and ideas today compare nothing to that which the ancients knew and used. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are missing my point I did not say that magic does not it exist, my argument had nothing to do with that. All I said that in the Jewish religion the practice of magic is forbidden therefore such a curse, considered 'black magic' would never come out of the Jewish religion, in no way do we believe in curses. Magic is a far more complex thing (who is to say that us living is not magic... etc, etc,) and thats why I didn't try argue it. And to tvsr, once again there is no ambiguity in the word Razim, the literal translation is the academic translation, I have consulted many fluents in the language on the topic and it is agreed. I feel like I should renege on my previous statement because it has caused too much confusion and everyone is getting the wrong ideas about what I mean.
exactly. everything that made it a true religion has been taken away. now it's simply an act, a routine.
the same with all current religions, they have been made corporations. it's about making money and looking good.
religion isn't found in a church or a school, it's what's inside of you, not what you put inside of a collection plate.
until the revolution we are all dreaming slaves.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tvsr [/i]
[B]exactly. everything that made it a true religion has been taken away. now it's simply an act, a routine.
the same with all current religions, they have been made corporations. it's about making money and looking good.
religion isn't found in a church or a school, it's what's inside of you, not what you put inside of a collection plate. [/B][/QUOTE]
thats a brilliant thought and it sounds like one of the core ideas of survivor
wait, are those quotes
this thread ended a while ago, but i'm jsut readin it for the first time, having jsut finished Lullaby...anyway: Being jewish i found this whole debate very funny, because the actual Jew, sorry Branson, is very wrong. Safer Ha-Razim does translate to "Book of Mysteries". I would say u need some brushing up not just on your hebrew, but your linguistics in general...Literal translations, especially when in phrases, rarely ahve a literal meaning. Also, Ive been to safed in Israel (if u dont know thats the birth place of Jewish mysticism) and I have studied mysticism. There certainly are physical activities and rituals the are engaged in for the purpose of triggering some divine response. In the spirit of chuck, i dont know if magic is the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind. Yes, even though mysticism is really about balance between parallel universes..blah blah blah...light some candles, say some prayers...blah blah blah....essentially its some sort of magic ritual. And there are prayers that ask things of G-d too, branson,...What is Yom- Kippur..we ask G-d for attonement and a happy new year. also, just because a prayer isnt written in the torah doesnt mean it doesnt exist, doesnt mean u cant create your own prayers....brush up on your religion bud...contemporize and open your mind a little...AND STOP GIVIN CHUCK A HARD TIME!
I know hebrew as a first language, and Razim is the plural version of Raze, which is in fact "thin". But, Razim is also the plural version of Raz, which is "mystery", or "secret".
being jewish, I didn't find chuck's remark as offensive or anything, Just something to keep my mind on.
Interesting.
When the going gets tough
the tough get going..
Can we please pick on Catholics now...
While a religion may not condone something it doesn't mean that it's followers won't stray once in a while. I was raised Catholic and so of course Astrology was a big no no. You ask many Catholics and they will tell you what their star sign is. They may even have a book of numerology on their bookshelf.
Did anyone ever read The Gollem? I hope I am spelling it right. It was a fun horror story based on some bad guy made of clay.I remember he was based on a Jewish story. It was so cool to see something new in a horror story as opposed to a vampire, devil, witch, alien,wolfman or the regular crowd of evil-doers.
[QUOTE=tbranson]:mad: I know I sound like one of those whiners who complains about everything, but I'm a huge fan of Chuck's and I got really offended when I came across an incorrect Jewish reference in Lullaby. There is a paragraph that talks about a curse in a book of spells 'Sefer Ha-razim', where you put a puppy's head behind someones house to prevent them from sleeping. I found this to be totally absurd, because 1) Judaism is very clear that we are not to believe in witchcraft and sorcery, or any of that hocus-pocus so theres no ways that he should have put that in ( I know its fiction but still) and 2) I speak Hebrew quite well and as far as I know Sefer Ha-razim would translate roughly to 'book of the thins'? :confused:[/QUOTE]
where is Smartazboy when you need him?
Honestly download CryMeARiver.mp3 right now for this threads theme song.
O NO A JEWISH REFERENCE!?!?!?!
People bash the Catholic church, christianity, Islam, smaller religions like the Jains or Zoroastrians, cults, and belief systems ALL THE TIME. Do you think maybe buddhists got offended when the characters kept saying "Reincarnation is just people procrastinting theor lives?" Or did you laugh like the rest of us? People bash Christians for all kinds of things, true or not, that were done in the past, and I am sure just as there were bad or dark Christians there were bad Jews as well. You will find every religion has its dark sects and evil parts, people who were cast out of the faith and decided to make their own, much like say the Satanists who go against Chrsitianity yet still use Christian theology and the bible, and symbols that rleate negativley from Christianity. And of course I forgot, you were around a thousand years ago and you know for a fact that som Jews were never involved with witch craft which was more liek a science to people beack than. But whatever, be the blind man. Get your panties out of a knot and think before you scream abuse of your precious beliefs, alright?
(I myself habe no religious inclinations and no prejudice towards jews or other religions. I do have a problem witht he self-righeous though)
[IMG]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/fan/workshop/topdogs/Junior_copy_editor_MockyMockins.gif[/IMG][URL=http://chuckpalahniuk.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=210][IMG]http://img68.exs.cx/img68/5013/stanzasociety6iw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
"... got this store bought way of saying I'm ok..."
[QUOTE=tbranson]:mad: I know I sound like one of those whiners who complains about everything, but I'm a huge fan of Chuck's and I got really offended when I came across an incorrect Jewish reference in Lullaby. There is a paragraph that talks about a curse in a book of spells 'Sefer Ha-razim', where you put a puppy's head behind someones house to prevent them from sleeping. I found this to be totally absurd, because 1) Judaism is very clear that we are not to believe in witchcraft and sorcery, or any of that hocus-pocus so theres no ways that he should have put that in ( I know its fiction but still) and 2) I speak Hebrew quite well and as far as I know Sefer Ha-razim would translate roughly to 'book of the thins'? :confused:[/QUOTE]
Wanna hear a joke?
knock knock...
--who's there?--
Go Fuck Yourself.
[QUOTE=walkingcontradiction]Wanna hear a joke?
knock knock...
--who's there?--
Go Fuck Yourself.[/QUOTE]
SHE TOLD YOU TO MASTURBATE... HA HA HA HA HAAAA HA!
[IMG]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/fan/workshop/topdogs/Junior_copy_editor_MockyMockins.gif[/IMG][URL=http://chuckpalahniuk.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=210][IMG]http://img68.exs.cx/img68/5013/stanzasociety6iw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
"... got this store bought way of saying I'm ok..."
As far as magic is concerned. If you choose to call it that. It does exist in the Jewish religion. Witches and the like are trully not condoned in the Jewish religion, why you ask, because these were usually whores and in it for the monetary value. Moreover, magic and sourcery are prohibitted to laymen for they will be used for selfish and possibly evil purposes.
However, the Kaballah is a source of trumendous magic. It is stated in the written bible and the spoken one (Torah She Ba Alpeh) that the Kabbalah should not be fucked with by ordinary men. The only men and women who could even begin to study it must be righteous people who have dedicated their lives to the learning of the bible and God. This is so, because, anyone who has extensively studied the bible would not choose to use magic for his own good nor for reasons such as money.
Moreover, Sefer Ha Razim translates into The Book Of Secrets.
Yes, I am Jewish, yes I have learned Jewish Histoy and the Bible. Not extensively so that I can read Kaballah, but I read it.
Anyhow, before attacking others, and I do not mean your intial post, I mean attacking people who were trying to help, get your facts straight by learning something.
-NARS.
Nothing is static...
[QUOTE=tbranson]:mad: I know I sound like one of those whiners who complains about everything, but I'm a huge fan of Chuck's and I got really offended when I came across an incorrect Jewish reference in Lullaby. There is a paragraph that talks about a curse in a book of spells 'Sefer Ha-razim', where you put a puppy's head behind someones house to prevent them from sleeping. I found this to be totally absurd, because 1) Judaism is very clear that we are not to believe in witchcraft and sorcery, or any of that [COLOR=Red]hocus-pocus [/COLOR] so theres no ways that he should have put that in ( I know its fiction but still) and 2) I speak Hebrew quite well and as far as I know Sefer Ha-razim would translate roughly to 'book of the thins'? :confused:[/QUOTE]
A few friends of mine are into whitchcraft and stuff. you reference to calling it [COLOR=Red]hocus-pocus [/COLOR] offends me!!!
It’s all a dream until you wake up and realize that you never slept last night and that’s real blood on your hands. The axe you can see in the corner of your eye, that’s your axe. You used it last night when you killed her. It all comes flooding back. Now you start thinking.
Where’s the body?
Can it be traced to me?
Who the fuck did I kill?
What’s happening to me?
I didn’t do this shit, did I?
i first saw it on another messageboard, where you don't click links, the pics are just right up there. it was like, BAM! THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF MALFUNCTIONING HUMANITY! AND I'VE PUT IT BEORE YOU AND NOW THERE'S NO FORGETTING WHAT YOU'VE SEEN! so i've had some time to get over it.
[url=http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=176][img]http://www.italiamia.info/immagini/banner468.gif[/img][/url]
all it takes is $60 and a dream.
[QUOTE=vidalia]i first saw it on another messageboard, where you don't click links, the pics are just right up there. it was like, BAM! THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF MALFUNCTIONING HUMANITY! AND I'VE PUT IT BEORE YOU AND NOW THERE'S NO FORGETTING WHAT YOU'VE SEEN! so i've had some time to get over it.[/QUOTE]
so, who keeps deleting my post?
While we're on this whole political correctness thing I'll just make a very simple comment. Stephen, although some of you here might hate his work, I still think he's a great storyteller. His characters have been derogatory of women, gays, probably every religious practice, but does that stop me from respecting him as a writer.....NO!!! Does this mean I'm a biggot? NO!! Get over your self righteousness...i'm sick of people telling us to think of our audiences as androdgenious, sexless creatures with virgins ears. Go read Golden Books if you don't want to be offended by anything!
[IMG]http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/fan/workshop/topdogs/Mark_Grover_Junior_copy_editor.gif[/IMG]
Interesting take on how religions in general get made and entrenched: Jorge Luis Borges, "The Lottery of Babylon."
That's your homework. Quiz on Monday. Be prepared to compare and contrast what happens to faith when the term "God" is replaced with "The Company".
[COLOR=SandyBrown][SIZE=2]Perhaps, being lost, one should get [COLOR=RoyalBlue]loster[/COLOR]. - Saul Bellow[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[Color=SandyBrown][Size=2]Perhaps, being lost, one should get [COLOR=Red]lobster[/COLOR]. - Dean Young[/size][/color]
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